{"id":12686,"date":"2024-12-14T21:25:26","date_gmt":"2024-12-14T20:25:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/?p=12686"},"modified":"2025-10-17T20:51:41","modified_gmt":"2025-10-17T18:51:41","slug":"atc-pragmatc-argument","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/atc-pragmatc-argument\/","title":{"rendered":"ATC Pragmatic Argument"},"content":{"rendered":"\n\n\n
\n

ATC<\/span><\/h1>\n<\/td>\n

\n

PRAGMATIC ARGUMENT
\n<\/span><\/h1>\n

\u00ab\u00a0Profit, moreover, does not fall from Heaven,
\nnor does it spring forth from the Earth.\u00a0\u00bb<\/strong><\/span><\/h1>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

The following text is an extract from Discourses on Salt and Iron<\/em><\/strong><\/a>, a compilation of a debate held at the imperial court in 81bce<\/strong>, by Huan K’uan,<\/strong> translated by Esson M. Gale<\/strong>. [1]\nChina had been unified a century and a half earlier by Emperor Q\u00edn Sh\u01d0hu\u00e1ng, who was overthrown by the First Han Dynasty in 206bce.
\nIn the debate, the Lord Grand Secretary is pitted against a group of sixty Confucian scholars on ssues of ieconomic and social policy \u00a0issues, with the focus being on the Grand Secretary’s policy of establishing state monopolies on salt and iron.
\nThe dispute took place in the presence of the emperor.<\/p>\n

1. The Lord Grand Secretary speaks first<\/span><\/h2>\n

a.<\/em> The Lord Grand Secretary<\/strong>: Formerly when the Lord of Shang was Chancellor of Ch’in he pursued in internal affairs<\/em> the policy of putting the laws and regulations on a firm basis, of making punishments<\/em> and penalties<\/em> harsh and severe, and of ordering government and education. In this no mercy was shown to the criminals and the cheats. In his external policy<\/em> he managed to obtain profits of a hundred fold and collected taxes on mountains and
\nmarshes. The state became rich, the people, strong; weapons and implements were kept ready, complete in every detail, and grain-stores had a surplus.<\/p>\n

b.<\/strong> <\/em>As a result of these measures he was able to wage war on enemy countries, to conquer foreign states, to annex new lands, and to extend wide his territories, without overtaxing the people for the support of the army. Thus he could draw constantly upon the resources of the people and the people would not even notice it; he could extend the territory of Ch’in to include all west of the Yellow River and the people bore no hardships on this account.<\/p>\n

c. <\/strong>The profits derived from the salt and iron monopolies serve to relieve the needs of the people in emergencies and to provide sufficient funds for the upkeep of military forces. These measures emphasize conservation and storing up in order to provide for times of scarcity and want. The beneficiaries are many; the State profits thereby and no harm is caused to the masses. Where are those hardships of the common people which cause you so much worry?<\/p>\n

The Grand Secretary uses a<\/span> pragmatic argument<\/a> based on the positive consequences.<\/span><\/strong><\/span>
\nAs a determinant of action, the pragmatic argument is a universal anthropological principle that is integral to human activity. We sow in order to reap, and we reap in order to eat. If an action will have positive consequences, then we should perform it; if the consequences of an action are beneficial, then this action was right, and we are justiifed in pursuing it.
\nIn \u00a7a<\/strong> The Grand Secretary first recalls the harsh policies inaugurated by Shang Yang<\/strong> (c.390\u2013338bce), a former minister of the State of Ch’in. <\/span>He claims that this policy was successful in both internal affairs (\u00a7a<\/strong>, profit of\u00a0 a hundredfold<\/em>) and external affairs (\u00a7b<\/strong>, extension of the territory<\/em>), and presents himself as his continuator.<\/span>
\nIn \u00a7c<\/strong>, the Grand Secretary claims that the salt and iron policy he has initiated is beneficial to the state<\/strong> and neutral for the people<\/strong> (it does not harm the masses).
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

The floor is now with the literati<\/em>.<\/span><\/h2>\n

The literati <\/em>utterly reject the positive consequences alluded to by the Grand Secretary, at the point of implicitly accusing him of lying.<\/p>\n

d.<\/em> The Literati:<\/strong> At the time of W\u00ean Ti was there not no profit from salt and iron and was not the nation prosperous? Now we have this system and the people are in dire circumstances<\/strong>. We fail yet to see how profitabe is this \u00ab\u00a0profit\u00a0\u00bb [of which you speak], but we see clearly the harm it does. Profit, moreover, does not fall from Heaven<\/strong>, nor does it spring forth from the Earth; it is derived entirely from the people. To call it hundredfold is a mistake in judgment similar to that of the simpleton<\/strong> who wore his furcoat inside out while carrying wood, hoping to save the fur and not realizing that the hide was being ruined.
\ne.<\/strong> Now, an abundant crop of prunes will cause a decline for the year immediately following; the new grain ripens. at the expense of the old. For Heaven and Earth do not become full at the same time: so much more is this the case with human activities! Profit in one place involves diminution elsewhere just as yin<\/em> and yang<\/em> do not radiate at the same time<\/strong> and day and night alternate in length.
\nf.<\/strong> When Shang Yang introduced his harsh laws and increased his \u00ab profit \u00bb, the people of Ch\u2019in could not endure life and among themselves wept for Duke Hsiao. When Wu Ch\u2019i increased the army and engaged in a series of conquests, the people of Ch\u2019u were grievously disturbed and among themselves they shed tears for King Tao. After their death Ch\u2019u\u2019s position became more precarious every day, and Ch\u2019in grew weaker and weaker. So resentment increased with the growth of \u00ab profit \u00bb, and sorrows multiplied with the extension of territory.<\/strong> Where is all that \u00ab\u00a0inexhaustible profit to use without the people noticing it, and the territory extended to include all west of the Yellow River without the people suffering from it?\u00a0\u00bb
\ng.<\/strong> At the present time<\/strong>, as the Government uses in the management of internal affairs Shang Yang\u2019s system of registration and abroad Wu Ch\u2019i\u2019s methods of war, travellers are harassed on the road and the residents are suffering from want in their homes, while old women cry bitterly and grieving maidens moan. Even if we, the Literati, try not to worry, we cannot help it.<\/strong>
\n[End of the discourse of the literati]<\/em><\/p>\n

(\u00a7d)<\/strong> \u2014 The literatis first argument is that are alternative policies to those enacted by the Grand Secretary. At the time of W\u00ean Ti, was there not no profit from salt and iron and was not the nation prosperous? \u00a0(\u00a7d).
\n<\/strong>\u2014 Introduction of the literati leitmotif: \u00ab\u00a0People are in dire circumstances;\u00a0\u00bb
\n\u2014 <\/strong>The literati explicitly and utterly reject the positive consequences claimed by the Grand Secretary, thereby implicitly accusing him of lying.
\nThe Confucians claim that profit cannot be neutral. ‘Profit does not fall from Heaven’ (\u00a7d), <\/strong>meaning painless spontaneous and autonomous generation of profit does not exist.
\n– Speaking of hundredfold<\/strong> profit (\u00a7d<\/strong>) is a gross and ridiculous mistake, similar to that of a <\/strong>simpleton<\/strong> (\u00a7d).<\/p>\n

(\u00a7e)<\/strong> Moreover, the Grand Secretary’s pretensions\u00a0 go against the basic law of nature. According to the Confucian literati \u00ab\u00a0profit in one place involves diminution elsewhere, just as yin<\/em> and yang<\/em>\u00a0do not radiate at the same time\u00a0\u00bb (\u00a7e). Thus, profit and pain are a zero-sum game.\u00a0<\/strong> Remember that, carried away by his eloquence, the Grand Secretary, assumes that it is possible to bring good into the world without bringing evil (\u00a7c).
\n<\/strong>Therefore, p<\/strong>ragmatic argumentation is flawed \u00a0in both its practical consequences and in its very concept.
\n<\/strong>Western pragmatic argumentation assumes that the recommended action is positive overall and will improve the world, despite minor negative side effects. The literati reject this moderate position, they argue that the so-called negative side effects balance the touted main effect.<\/p>\n

(\u00a7f)<\/strong> rejects the alleged positive, painless benefits attributed to Shan Yang policies.<\/p>\n

(\u00a7g):<\/strong>\u00a0 The same applies to the policy implemented by his follower, the Lord Grand Secretary.<\/p>\n

The profits of some are inseparable from the losses of others. Like the natural world, the human world, functions according to a principle of balance; the good that happens here is correlated with the evil that happens elsewhere.<\/p>\n

\n

Hu\u00e1n Ku\u0101n (compiler), Discourses on Salt and Iron<\/em> – A debate on\u00a0 state control of commerce and Industry in Ancient China. Chapters I\u2013XXVIII. Translated from the Chinese of HuanK’uan with introduction and notes by Esson M. Gale. Original Publishers: E.J. Brill 1934. <\/span>Reprinted by\u00a0 Che’ng Wen Publishing Company.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

ATC PRAGMATIC ARGUMENT \u00ab\u00a0Profit, moreover, does not fall from Heaven, nor does it spring forth from the Earth.\u00a0\u00bb The following text is an extract from Discourses on Salt and Iron, a compilation of a debate held at the imperial court in 81bce, by Huan K’uan, translated by Esson M. Gale. [1] China had been unified […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[26],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-12686","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-atc"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12686","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=12686"}],"version-history":[{"count":23,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12686\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":15097,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12686\/revisions\/15097"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=12686"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=12686"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=12686"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}