{"id":9815,"date":"2024-03-18T14:27:49","date_gmt":"2024-03-18T13:27:49","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/?p=9815"},"modified":"2025-10-17T11:30:01","modified_gmt":"2025-10-17T09:30:01","slug":"atcct-disciples-vs-confucius-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/atcct-disciples-vs-confucius-2\/","title":{"rendered":"ATCCT \u2014\u00a0Diff\u00e9rends entre Confucius et ses disciples"},"content":{"rendered":"
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ATC Arguments between Confucius and his disciples<\/span><\/h1>\n

Confucius souhaite qu’on r\u00e9siste \u00e0 ce qu’il dit<\/span><\/h2>\n
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11.4 The Master said<\/em>, Hui is of no help to me. There is nothing in my words that fails to please him.<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

Mais si Hui ne contredit pas, il n’en pense pas moins<\/span><\/h2>\n

Comme l\u2019autocontradiction, la contradiction interpersonnelle exige une clarification. Le d\u00e9saccord stimule l\u2019\u00e9change et l\u2019activit\u00e9 intellectuelle,<\/p>\n

2,9 The Master said:<\/em> I can speak with Hui all day and he will never contradict me, like a dolt. But after he withdraws, when I survey his personal conduct, indeed he is ready to go forth. He\u2019s no dolt!\u00a0<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Confucius dit implicitement qu\u2019il pr\u00e9f\u00e8re le d\u00e9saccord, \u201cHui ne me contredit jamais, comme un imb\u00e9cile<\/em>\u201d \u2014 donc les imb\u00e9ciles ne contredisent jamais leur ma\u00eetre, et c\u2019est cette inf\u00e9rence implicite qui nous int\u00e9resse. Mais, en ce qui concerne Hui, cette premi\u00e8re conclusion, tir\u00e9e du comportement verbal de Hui est renvers\u00e9e par une constatation d\u00e9cisive, d\u2019un ordre sup\u00e9rieur, tir\u00e9e de l\u2019observation de sa conduite. Hui est le disciple pr\u00e9f\u00e9r\u00e9 de Confucius, et sa mort le plongera dans le d\u00e9sarroi le plus profond (Id. 11.8-11)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

Zilu fait face au ma\u00eetre
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Apprendre dans les livres, Bien se comporter: l’accord<\/h3>\n

Ad hominem refutation always requires a certain amount of editing of the target’s words or words and actions. For example, it is always unpleasant for a master to be critically confronted with his own teaching. In passages 1.6 and 1.7 of the Confucius Analects<\/em>, the scholar is characterised by his correct behaviour towards worthy people, his parents, people in general, his masters (those who are ren), and seems to attach only secondary importance to knowledge of the texts.<\/p>\n

1.6. The Master said:<\/em> A young man should be filial within his home and respectful of elders when outside, should be careful and trustworthy, broadly caring of people at large, and should cleave to those who are ren<\/em>. If he has energy left over, he may study the refinements of culture (wen<\/em>).<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

Zixia, a disciple of Confucius, offers a definition of a scholar along the same lines, though perhaps less categorically,<\/p>\n

1.7. Zixia said:<\/em> If a person treats worthy people as worthy and so alters his expression, exerts all his effort when serving his parents, exhausts himself when serving his lord, and is trustworthy in keeping his word when in the company of friends, though others may say he is not yet learned, I would call him learned.<\/strong><\/span>
\nAnalectsEno<\/sub>,<\/em> 1.6-7<\/a><\/p>\n

Zilu fait face au ma\u00eetre<\/h3>\n

In another passage, Zilu, one of Confucius’ disciples, has just hired another of his disciples, Zigao. Confucius seems to reproach him for this:<\/a><\/p>\n

1, 25 Zilu appointed Zigao to be the steward of Bi. <\/strong>The Master said<\/em>, \u201cYou are stealing\u00a0 another man\u2019s son!\u201d<\/strong><\/span>
\nZilu said,<\/em> \u201cThere are people there; there are altars of state there \u2013 why must one first read texts and only then be considered learned?\u201d<\/strong><\/span>
\nThe Master said<\/em>, \u201cThis is why I detest glib talkers!\u201d<\/strong><\/span>
\nAnalectsEno<\/sub><\/em>, 1, 25<\/p>\n

The Master seems to take offence at Zilu’s repartee.
\nAgain, R. Eno’s note clarifies the passage by relating it to an earlier passage,<\/p>\n

Note Eno : Zilu seems to be invoking lessons Confucius himself taught, much like the ideas in 1.6-7, to confound Confucius himself, which is the basis of Confucius\u2019s answer.<\/em>
\nEn effet, en 11, 25 Zilu lui rappelle qu’il a dit qu’un comportement parfaitement r\u00e9gl\u00e9 vis \u00e0 vis des personnes de r\u00e9f\u00e9rence \u2013\u00a0parents, Seigneur, amis \u2013 suffisait pour que quelqu’un soit reconnu comme \u00ab\u00a0a learned [person]\u00a0\u00bb, et trait\u00e9 comme tel, par exemple en recevant un emploi. Zilu se d\u00e9fend ainsi de lui avoir \u201cvol\u00e9 Zigao\u201d, ou d\u00e9fend la d\u00e9cision de Zigao.<\/em><\/p>\n

This contradiction is just one way of exercising the right of admonition, which is the counterpart of the right and duty of obedience to the ruler and the father.<\/p>\n

_______________<\/p>\n[1]\u00a0Leslie, Donald, 1964. Argument by Contradiction in Pre-Buddhist Chinese Reasoning<\/em>. Faculty of Asian Studies, ANU., Canberra.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

ATC Arguments between Confucius and his disciples Confucius souhaite qu’on r\u00e9siste \u00e0 ce qu’il dit 11.4 The Master said, Hui is of no help to me. There is nothing in my words that fails to please him. Mais si Hui ne contredit pas, il n’en pense pas moins Comme l\u2019autocontradiction, la contradiction interpersonnelle exige une […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[26],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-9815","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-atc"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9815","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=9815"}],"version-history":[{"count":17,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9815\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":14732,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9815\/revisions\/14732"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=9815"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=9815"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=9815"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}