{"id":9998,"date":"2024-03-23T15:17:37","date_gmt":"2024-03-23T14:17:37","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/?p=9998"},"modified":"2025-10-17T07:25:18","modified_gmt":"2025-10-17T05:25:18","slug":"atc-same-reasoning-movement","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/atc-same-reasoning-movement\/","title":{"rendered":"ATC Mencius, Gaozi: One passage, four translations"},"content":{"rendered":"\n\n\n
\n

ATC<\/strong><\/span><\/h2>\n<\/td>\n

\n

Four translations, same analogy<\/span><\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/strong>\u00ab\u00a0To make morality out of human nature <\/em><\/span>
\nis like making cups and bowls out of the willow tree\u00a0\u00bb <\/em><\/span><\/strong>Mencius<\/span><\/strong>LAU<\/sub><\/span><\/strong><\/span><\/h2>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Only specialists in ancient Chinese can fully understand and analyze the original Chinese reasoning presented in classical Chinese texts. Readers of translations are left with an X<\/strong> as it is translated as a reasoning.
\nSome translations are not, or not entirely, directly understandable to the lay reader; others are clear and equivalent; still others are clear but not equivalent. Mencius’ discussions with Kao Tzu (= Gaotzi = Kao Tzeu) illustrate these different situations. They are available in at least the following four translations.<\/p>\n

Mencius<\/em>. Trans., Introd. and Notes by D. C. Lau. Penguin Classics.\u00a0 1970, 2003,<\/span><\/p>\n

Mencius<\/em>, An online teaching translation with introduction, notes and glossary\u00a0 by Robert Eno, Version 1.0 2016. http:\/\/www.indiana.edu\/~p374\/Mencius (Eno-2016).pdf<\/span><\/p>\n

\u0152uvres de Meng Tzeu<\/em>. Les quatre livres, IV. Traduit par S\u00e9raphin Couvreur (1835-1919), \u00a9 1895. Mise en mode texte par Pierre Palpant, www.chineancienne.fr<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Angus Charles Graham. 1989. Disputers of the Tao. Philosophical argument in ancient China.<\/em> La Salle, Illinois, Open Court.<\/span><\/p>\n

On the term \u201chuman nature,\u201d see the Glossary<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

1. Four e<\/strong>quivalent translations of the same passage from Mencius<\/strong><\/span><\/h1>\n

Different translations can cleary express the same argument. These translations are said to be equivalent as far as their reasoning movement is concerned.\u00a0 There may remain\u00a0 variations in the conceptual vocabulary<\/a> used in the different <\/strong>translations.<\/strong><\/p>\n

In the following passage where Mencius counters Gaozi\u2019s arguments from analogy by finding a weakness in the analogy.<\/p>\n

MenciusLau<\/sub><\/span>
\nVI A 1. Kao Tzu said, \u2018Human nature is like the ch\u2019i<\/em> willow. Dutifulness is like cups and bowls. To make morality out of human nature is like making cups and bowls out of the willow\u2019.
\n\u2018Can you,\u2019 said Mencius, \u2018make cups and bowls by following the nature of the willow? Or must you mutilate the willow before you can make it into cups and bowls? If you have to mutilate the willow to make it into cups and bowls, must you then also mutilate a man to make him moral? Surely it will be these words of yours men in the world will follow in bringing disaster upon morality\u2019 (fin du \u00a7)
\n<\/em><\/strong>Mencius<\/em>. Trans., Introd. and Notes by D. C. Lau.\u00a0 \u00a91970, 2003, Penguin Classics, p.<\/p>\n

MenciusEno<\/sub><\/span>
\n<\/strong>6A1 Gaozi said<\/em>, \u201cHuman nature is like the willow tree and righteousness is like cups and bowls. Drawing humanity and right from human nature is like making cups and bowls from willow wood.\u201d<\/strong>
\nMencius said<\/em>, \u201cCan you make cups and bowls from willow wood by following its natural grain or is it only after you have hacked the willow wood that you can make a cup or bowl? If you must hack the willow to make cups and bowls from it, must you hack people in order to make them humane and righteous? Your words will surely lead the people of the world to destroy humanity and right.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

MenciusCouvreur<\/sub><\/span>
\n<\/strong>VI.I.1. p.557 Kao tzeu dit<\/em> \u2014 La nature peut \u00eatre compar\u00e9e \u00e0 l\u2019osier, et la justice (cette disposition qui nous porte \u00e0 traiter les hommes et les choses comme il convient) <\/em>peut \u00eatre compar\u00e9e \u00e0 une coupe ou \u00e0 une autre \u00e9cuelle d\u2019osier. La nature humaine re\u00e7oit les dispositions \u00e0 la bienfaisance et \u00e0 la justice, comme l\u2019osier re\u00e7oit la forme d\u2019une coupe ou d\u2019une autre \u00e9cuelle.<\/strong>
\nMeng tzeu dit<\/em> \u2014 Pouvez-vous faire une coupe ou une autre \u00e9cuelle avec de l\u2019osier sans contrarier les tendances de sa nature ? Vous ne le pouvez; vous devez couper et maltraiter l\u2019osier. Si vous coupez et maltraitez l\u2019osier pour en faire une \u00e9cuelle, irez- vous aussi l\u00e9ser et maltraiter la nature humaine pour lui donner des dispositions \u00e0 la bienfaisance et \u00e0 la justice ? S\u2019il est une doctrine capable de porter les hommes \u00e0 rejeter comme nuisibles la bienveillance et la justice, c\u2019est certainement la v\u00f4tre.<\/strong><\/p>\n

MenciusGraham<\/sub><\/span>
\nKao-tzu said:<\/em> \u2018Our nature is like the willow, the right is like cups and bowls. Making the benevolent and the right out of man\u2019s nature is like making cups and bowls out of the willow.\u201d<\/strong>
\n\u2018Are you able\u2019, said Mencius<\/em>, by\u00a0 \u2018following the willow\u2019s nature to make cups and bowls out of it? Isn\u2019t it rather that to make cups and bowls out of it you have to violate the willow? If you violate the willow to make cups and bowls out of it, do you also violate man to make the benevolent and the right out of him?\u00a0 I suggest\u00a0 that if anything can lead the people of the world to think of the benevolent and the right as misfortunes it is this saying of yours\u2019<\/strong>
\nGrahan, A. C.,<\/em> p. 120.<\/p>\n

The nature of the willow is to grow into a flourishing tree and it is violated when we chop and carve the wood into the shape which suits our purposes. Kao-tzu\u2019s analogy does have a direction of growth, and morality is against nature. But then Kao-tzu\u2019s own example tells against him : nature would be not neutral but bad. Neither for Kao-tzu nor for Mencius is this a thinkable \u2014 what incentive would there be to moral behaviour? Although it was to become one with Hsun-Tzu in the next century (id.)
\n<\/em>Grahan, A. C Disputers of the Tao<\/em>. p. 120.<\/p>\n

The main differences lie not in the reasoning, but in the English conceptual vocabulary used in the various translations, see<\/p>\n

2. A difficult case:
\nFour different translations of another passage from Mencius<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

In other cases,the translations seems roughly equivalent, but the reasoning movement is nevertheless beyond the grasp of a lay reader.
\nIn the following passage, Mencius counters Gaozi\u2019s definition of the word \u00ab\u00a0nature\u00a0\u00bb. His justification is categorical.
\nOne may find that the inferring license, corresponding to the reasoning move, needs developments based on a sophisticated knowledge of the Chinese language.
\nEno’s translation is followed by an understandable explanation of that kind, apparently accessible to the lay reader.<\/p>\n

(a) MenciusLau<\/sub> (1970, 2003)<\/span>
\n6A3. Kao Tzu said \u201cThat which is inborn is what is meant by \u2018nature\u2019. \u201d
\n<\/strong>\u2018Is that\u2019, said Mencius, the same as \u2018 white is what is meant by \u201cwhite\u201d ?\u2019
\n<\/strong>\u2018Yes\u2019
\n<\/strong>\u2018Is the whiteness of white feathers the same as the whiteness of white snow and the whiteness of white snow the same as the whiteness of white jade?\u2019
\n<\/strong>\u2018Yes\u2019
\n<\/strong>\u2018In that case, is the nature of a hound the same as the nature of an ox and the nature of an ox the same as the nature of a man?\u2019 <\/strong>(end of \u00a73)
\nMencius<\/em>. Trans., Introd. and Notes by D. C. Lau.\u00a0 \u00a91970, 2003, Penguin Classics<\/p>\n

(b) MenciusEno<\/sub> (2016)<\/span>
\n6A.3. Gaotzi said \u201cThe term \u2018nature\u2019 simply means \u2018inborn\u2019 \u201d<\/strong>
\nMencius said, \u201cDo you mean that \u2018nature\u2019 means \u2018inborn\u2019\u00a0as \u2018white\u2019 means \u2018white\u2019?<\/strong>
\n\u201cPrecisely\u201d\u00a0\u2018<\/strong>
\n\u201cAs the white of white feathers is the white of snow and the white of snow is the white of white jade?\u2019<\/strong>
\n\u201cYes\u2019\u201cThen the nature of a hound would be the same as the nature of an ox and the nature of an ox would be the same as the nature of a man\u2019s?<\/strong>\u2019 (end of \u00a73)<\/p>\n

Note Eno 6A.3 :
\n<\/strong>This passage turns on wordplay. The term for the \u201cnature\u201d of a living thing is xing <\/em>\u6027<\/strong>, which was cognate in sound and form with the word sheng <\/em>\u751f<\/strong>, which meant \u201clife, alive, inborn.\u201d In Mencius\u2019s time, the graph \u751f<\/strong> could stand for either word. While Gaozi clearly wishes to make a substantive claim about how the term xing <\/em>should be defined, Mencius reduces this to a lexical analogy to the word \u201cwhite\u201d (bai <\/em>\u767d<\/strong>):<\/p>\n

\u751f = \u751f :: \u767d = \u767d<\/span><\/p>\n

Gaozi should have rejected the proposed analogy.<\/p>\n

(c) MenciusCouvreur<\/sub> (1895)<\/span>
\n<\/strong>Kao tzeu dit : \u2014 La nature n\u2019est autre chose que la vie.<\/strong>
\nMeng tzeu dit : \u2014 La nature doit-elle \u00eatre appel\u00e9e vie comme tout objet blanc est appel\u00e9 blanc ?<\/strong>
\n\u2014 Oui r\u00e9pondit Kao tzeu.<\/strong>
\n\u2014 La blancheur d\u2019une plume blanche, dit Meng tzeu est-elle la m\u00eame que celle de la neige; et la blancheur de la neige, la m\u00eame que celle d\u2019une perle blanche?<\/strong>
\n\u2014 Oui r\u00e9pondit Kao tzeu.<\/strong>
\n\u2014 Alors, dit Meng tzeu, la nature du chien est la m\u00eame que celle du b\u0153uf et la nature du b\u0153uf la m\u00eame que celle de l\u2019homme. [<\/em><\/strong>fin du \u00a7]<\/strong>
\n<\/em>\u0152uvres de Meng Tzeu<\/em>. Trad. et notes par S. Couvreur. Cit\u00e9 d\u2019apr\u00e8s www.chineancienne.fr<\/a>. p. 180<\/p>\n

(d) Mencius<\/span>Graham<\/span>
\n<\/sub><\/strong>Kao-tzu said\u00a0: \u2018it is life (sheng<\/em>) that is meant by \u201cnature\u201d (hsing<\/em>)\u2019<\/strong>
\n\u2018Is life meant by \u201cnature\u201d \u2019, said Mencius, \u2018as white is meant by \u201cwhite\u201d\u00a0\u2019\u00a0?<\/strong>
\n\u2018It is\u2019<\/strong>
\n\u201cIs the white of white feathers like the white of white snow, the white of white snow\u00a0 like the white of\u00a0 white jade?\u2019<\/strong>
\n\u2018It is\u2019<\/strong>
\n\u2018Then is the dog\u2019s nature like the ox\u2019s nature, the ox\u2019s nature like man\u2019s nature\u00a0?<\/strong>
\nGraham, A. C Disputers of the Tao. p. 119.<\/p>\n

\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

ATC Four translations, same analogy \u00ab\u00a0To make morality out of human nature is like making cups and bowls out of the willow tree\u00a0\u00bb MenciusLAU Only specialists in ancient Chinese can fully understand and analyze the original Chinese reasoning presented in classical Chinese texts. Readers of translations are left with an X as it is translated […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[26],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-9998","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-atc"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9998","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=9998"}],"version-history":[{"count":33,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9998\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":10001,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9998\/revisions\/10001"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=9998"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=9998"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/icar.cnrs.fr\/dicoplantin\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=9998"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}